Who feels there is something wrong here?

Tommy

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Hi guys, its been a long time.... have come back to have another go at it.

Sorry to be a royal nuisance if this has no hope of being taken seriously, although i hope it is...
i am sickened at the state of the economy... say "go play on another server then" or "you dont have to play if you dont like it", but thats just not the point, lolnet is the only server i play on or i dont play at all..... and above that i feel partly responsible for the collapse of the gold and iron prices.....

The way i understand it the economy is there to enhance the play and give people a purpose to building their farms, making good use of the game mechanics to be able to make wealth and buy other things they like, thus reinvesting in the market......
is the problem that people would save the money? thus taking it from the market?
i dont believe that the idea of afk farming for wealth is hurting the economy or the people..... i dont believe that it is fair to crash the market as a response to STOP people from investing their money and time into building elaborate sysytems, allowing them to afk farm.... it does nothing but lower the quality of the game for people wanting to build these farms...... but does not affect those who just want to build a home or other artistic creation or the economy...... not from the point of view of a player, all we know is that there is a price for that item and we can buy or sell it, the fact that mister X makes these while afk makes no difference.

I know i go on a bit, but i wouldnt unless i had good reason...
In short nerfing the prices has nerfed a large part of minecrafts enjoyment in the process.

thanks for taking the time to read this
feel free to take your pound of flesh.
 

dezil_nz

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ill be the first to respond we are always open to things, but let me say this you talk about economy and I would expect you to understand this Tommy if you flood the market with something its value goes down does it not?

so what are you hopping to see if we were to do an overhaul off the economy as we are prepared to look at it

cheers Dez
 

Tommy

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Thanks Dez, appreciate the question...
Firstly, that is true of any real life economy but i don't see why we have to treat our server economy like a real life one.... in real life an economy is adjusted because of its impact on other businesses and banking systems.... on lolnet if someone sells a million gold ingots it doesn't affect anyone or have a trickle down effect, the shop system should be there to simply be used to enhance gameplay, what one or more people do should not impact others and remove the incentive for creativity...

i would like to see a compromise made between the old prices and the new.... a fair price for all, without listing exact figures for individual items.... (god forbid) there does need to be an overhaul and i am open to offer any suggestions for items prices.... if that is wanted.
 

dezil_nz

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but wouldn't a more realistic economy be more fun?

were the prices are actually set by the market and not buy me or you,

also you talk about the old and new prices the old prices were set with out taking into consideration the amount of gold and or iron that could be earned from afk farming and were based on the ore gen rates (a mistake on our part but one that needed to be fixed)

perhaps we should ban afk farming and put the prices back to what they were?
 

Tommy

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that's the big question here isn't it... is it more fun?
a compromise... the old prices where flawed and the new prices are nerfed.... there needs to be a fair in between....

afk farming isn't based purely on someone just afking to earn money they actually have to cram many hundreds of hours into building the farm first... not to mention resources, which are often bought from the markets and shops....
then after they make the money they often reinvest large amounts of it back into the economy, buying the things they want.

this is all of course just MY opinion... that's why i have opened this forum post to get a gauge on what others feel, perhaps this will come to nothing, maybe it will prompt some sort of change, i dont know...
 

dezil_nz

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yea im just throwing ideas around
 

mikhaila666

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Ok, bored and this involves math, so I'll come out of hiatus for a bit.

No matter what people's opinions, an "economy", whether real or make believe is going to have certain rules you can't get away from. Real world economies are created by governments, or laws, or taxes. They are created by supply and demand of products. Governments and businesses can affect these somewhat by putting in price floors/ceilings, charging taxes, restricting movement of money, or the supply of money itself.

Sometimes it works, and many times very smart people end up screwing their countries economies because market forces don't care about silly rules.

The main problem you'll find with AFK farming is it takes away the main cost of gaining resources: time. The effort to make the farm is fixed, after that it's a free ride. Because this is easy, many people set them up. If it wasn't such an effiecient and easy way of doing it, it wouldn't be so popular.

The more gold and iron these farms produce, the less value the gold and iron has.
The more money in the world, the less money is worth.

A server can artificially fix these problems by buying things from players, and selling things to players. Money is now at least always worth earning to get stuff.

But it's not an "economy". It's just you and the server playing a little game with each other. An economy is selling/buying from other players.

As to "fun", i don't know. Your fun isn't my fun isn't Dez's fun etc. Same with "fair".

You made the statement The way i understand it the economy is there to enhance the play and give people a purpose to building their farms, making good use of the game mechanics to be able to make wealth and buy other things they like, thus reinvesting in the market...... . This is a false assumption. The first part might be true, that it adds/enhances the game. But making the claim that it was put in to encourage afk farming has to be false. Dez already stated prices were based on ore gen, not autofarms. If anything an economy would be better based on mining, farming, gathering, and other things you do while ingame, not afk. AFK farming just leads to a quiet server full of AFK players adding to their bank accounts for no other reason than bragging rights.

The best minecraft economies i've ever seen were on a two servers with very active players. Both were on the early tekkit system. One disallowed all sorts of quarries, but mining areas over time. The other allowed a quarry, but had rare levels of materials. The people that made the most money were the ones either gathering the most resources, or who spent the most time buying and selling items. Because there was a value to both materials, money, and time, the economy worked.

Ok, out of here, got another 50 items to put up on Ebay and sell. Real World economy stuff :)
 

PhoReaper

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mikhaila666 said:
But it's not an "economy". It's just you and the server playing a little game with each other. An economy is selling/buying from other players.
Bingo. In the case of the $$$ market (I'm just saying this to be super-not-ambiguous), I suggest that we remove the capacity for buying/selling with the server.
 

Tommy

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understood...
however, fun is the name of the game ultimately....
no one actually gets hurt or in any way negatively impacted by mr X afk farming, and lowering the value of items specific to these farms does not make a difference to those people who are not building the farms, only removes a large part of minecrafts creative playability for those who have ideas above and beyond those of mining and building a home.....
i believe that if people didnt care about an economy as an incentive to build these farms they would simply play single player and not have the issue of an economy, however I at least play on a server to provide some purpose to the game.... an economy made those ideas of afk farms and other massive projects have some meaning...
so basicly the only people that get hurt are those that want to build the farms.....
there is no reason to treat the server economy the same way as a real world one.... the figures are so far out of whack its not even a joke anymore.....
i meen for instance who in their right mind would pay $600 for 10 pieces of lapis? while only recieving a tiny fraction for selling it.....
that one isnt even a result of afk farming...... i suspect its to encourage people to mine for it..... which is not what a real world economy does....
they are not adjusted unfairly to affect certain ideas on people..... they are adjusted according to supply and demand....
fair, fun.... those words are not defined by my ideas but by the majority.....
i would love to know how everyone feels on this...

personally i would like to see some sort of server economy where the number of items sold to the server not only affect the sell price but the buy price also.... as it currently stands there is a massive imbalance.
 

mikhaila666

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" however I at least play on a server to provide some purpose to the game.... an economy made those ideas of afk farms and other massive projects have some meaning..."

So what changes with more money per gold ingot? Not one thing according to you. You still have an economy. You still have incentive. You can still build massive projects. The amount of $$ you get is just lower than it was, which you probably wouldn't even care about if it hadn't been high in the first place.

"so basicly the only people that get hurt are those that want to build the farms....."

Hurt? How the hell did anyone get Hurt? No one got hurt at all. No one told you to build farms, no one promised you anything if you did. It's a free game. The only thing you lose in playing Minecraft is time. And it's gone and you aren't ever getting it back. Maybe a screen shot of a nice build you did? That's about it.

You can still build that farm. You've just got it in your head that you want more $$$ from it than the server gives you now. Other people would rather not have buying/selling to the server at all. This isnt a "who gets hurt" arguement, it's just differing opinions on how the game is played.

And please don't misunderstand: I could care less how much $ you get for an ingot of gold. I just find your arguments about why it should be changed to be lacking.
 

Tommy

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lets hear it from the people then... my arguments might not be as polished as i would like, however there is a point here which everyone gets.... whether they agree with it or not.
if you dont care if the economy even exists then your obviously not one of the people who should be asked if they feel its fair......

the economy is unbalanced, ive so far heard 3 opinions, it would be better if those opinions where of people who actually use the economy but ill take what the forums can give..... admins and moderators mostly, as ill be muted if i ask in ingame chat.....
a floating economy where if someone sold a million items to the server, yes the sell price should lower but while it does, others would be able to buy at a lower price untill enough had been sold to balance the economy, does this meen iron would end up being free after a few days... no, we set minimum prices, that way the afk farms are helping supply the server with items to keep them from skyrocketting when there is very little in the server store...

sorry if thats confusing, like i said my words are not as polished as i would like but i feel there is enough to make my point.
 

mikhaila666

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if you dont care if the economy even exists then your obviously not one of the people who should be asked if they feel its fair......

This is a fallacy used to shut people up. It basically makes the assumption that because someone doesn't have an involvement, nothing they say matters.

(I could use it on you: "You aren't playing, so why should we listen to you?" )

But I'm sure if I had said "OMG Tommy is right!" you wouldn't be saying that.

It has a reverse statement that is also used "you're involved so your biased and we shouldn't let you have an opinion"

With these two fallacies in your arsenal, you can tell anyone to shut up and go away.

Next thing to do is show how unfair someone is being. Use worlds like "unfair" "nerfed" "unbalanced" "not fun".
Continually saying things like "economy is unfair" is just a way to hammer at people, as if they did something to punish you. They didn't. It is neither fair nor unfair. It's an exchange rate, and a bonus offered to people on the server that doesn't exist in solo minecraft. You could argue it would work better if implemented differently, but saying "unfair" over and over isn't accurate. The same with "unbalanced". This isn't an economy, and there isn't any balance. Balance implies an equation. But one side has an ever increasing amount of gold entering the system. Which is how people accumulate thousands or millions of dollars. No balance. Again, just something to yell about.

...............................................................................................................................................................

Back on topic:

The system you are trying to describe is nearly impossible to implement unless automated. I actually believe there has been a plugin made that does this, adjusting prices based on what people buy and sell. I'd suggest go finding the plugin, and seeing if it is implemented for 1.8 and can work with cauldron.
 

EMPEthan

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I believe a lot of this has stemmed due to the sell price of gold being so low (~$500) and the buy price being quite high (~$20,000)
The price was dropped as a result of the influx of gold entering the economy because of these AFK farms. It has been a few months since this change was made (manually) so perhaps it is time the economy recovers for the gold market.
The nether was reset so there are currently no gold farms (to my knowledge at least) and so the people selling gold would be those who are working hard and mining for it.
If gold farms do make a comeback (more a case of when as opposed to if) but nevertheless when they do the price can reduce again.

Just an idea :]
 

KiwiFrogg

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Correct me if I'm wrong, you build a gold farm, flooded the market with gold now the price of gold went down and your upset?

Solution is make your own shop, sell it cheaper than the main shop, but more that the sell price. Problem is, you are relying on the sever to supply your game cash. In real life there would be no bottomless pit of money and the price would go down as a result. As long as the servers buy price moves with the sell price I think its fare. I have afk farms on another server, iron, guardian, ink, wool, ender pearls, and even wither skulls. There is no price change when you swamp the shop with items, its far too easy to make money, but I'm not worried cause I'm there for the fun and their AG skies 2 server :) .

Point is , one make a farm more for the fun of making it, and there are other ways to use those items to make money, just selling to the server shop is imo is a little lazy.
 

VINDICTATOR1972

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The Thing is, Depending on the shop he sells to, thats where the issue lies, he COULD sell to the ever flowing coins of the administration shops, OR, he could make his own shop and sell for what ever price he pleases.

One of these shops has less impact and the other ruins the economy and Nerfs Prices on people who DO NOT want an AFK Farm.
 

Tommy

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thanks guys, its good to see poeples feedback, rather than a tearing down of everything i have to say.... im not here to fight or step on toes.
only to point out that there needs to be some change, Mikhail i realise your only arguing this matter because its something fun for you to do..... thank you for your lovely input however im not going to keep battling the point with you.....
this post was not about having a battle, but about allowing people to voice their opinions on whether they feel there is something wrong with the server economy and if they feel change is needed.....

there IS something wrong with the economy, change DOES need to be made....
those are 2 points that cannot be argued.

this is not about just me and my farms.... i have none to speak of..... and dont plan on making any, any time soon, so as far as my being biased.... thats totally false.

as far as your opinion being valid.... when was the last time you used the shops for anything meaningful?
its not just a cheap shutup tactic.... its the truth, you dont use the economy and you dont care about it...... so why should you have a say?
the economy isnt there for your fun because you simply are not a user of it...... its there for the server members, and there is punishment being served to those members as a result of the afk farms..... however the price of buying items was never fairly... yes i said the word fairly.... adjusted to match the selling price....., tear me to pieces if thats what you want..... but the truth is plain for all to see, and thats something you cannot tear apart.
 

dezil_nz

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I love how you say your not hear to fight but still have to argue with Mik its gold

Mik did offer some useful info though which you have chosen to ignore he suggested you look for a plugin that will auto adjust prices as things are bought and sold, yet you are still rambling on about changes need to be made you suggested the price change as things are bought and sold how about finding the tool that would do it for us?

as stated we are willing to look into things but if you want change you will have to help with finding things that can achieve what "you" would like to see, as any major change to the economy is going to be hours and hours of work, for just one of our servers

now as I haven't yet given one hear is my opinion on economy's in minecraft, in a game were you can gain an infinite amount of a resource that can be sold and at the same time you can buy all other resources in the game is broken no mater how hard you look at it or try and justify it time spent building the farm etc does not make up for the infinite resources, this is the reason we do not run currency's or shops on the modded servers, but thy still have an economy in fact lots of player trading takes place on infinity and DW20.

so as I see we have a few options

1)do nothing (the easy option with no work for Dez :p don't fix what I didn't think was broken)

2)remove the server shops and open up a better area for player run shops (a real economy)

3)implement a system that auto adjusts prices as things are bought and sold with the server (this could just be implemented on key items that can be farmed while afk)(note I am not prepared to run it on every single item in the game as the amount of hours to do it and then check it is ludicrous)

4)re adjust the price of gold and iron (though this seems like the easy option most likely not going to happen as we would then need to monitor the amount sold and adjust it if we felt to high would prefer option 3 over this)

5)remove currency from the server (a drastic option and idea 2 would result in the same end goal)

6)set something on fire and pray to the Hammer for answerers (preferred option the hammer always knows what to do :p )

so a few things to think about and always open to other sugestions
 

Doom_NZ

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I've just been looking at this and haven't posted a reply on it yet. Looking at dez's options I kinda like the sound of option 2.. Sorry..Thats just my opinion. :)
 

ShadowKissed

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What exactly do you want fixed?...The economy is just like a real life one: more of something, less cost; less of something, more cost. The prices (to my understanding) are entirely dependent on what users buy and sell from the server.

If the prices were to be rock solid for everything then you'd end up with the people who spent hours and hours building afk farms selling their stuff to get a ridiculous sum of money, which they spend on buying large amounts of infinitely available resources.

Personally, Dez option 1 & 2 seem best to me. Either we do nothing to fix something that isn't really broken, or users run their own shops (which I think we've done in the past, with stalls etc.)
 

Tommy

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Fair enough....
i like the 3rd option but of course option 2 does have its benefits.....
i will endevour to find a plugin that will do what we need then....
 
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